Monday, September 27, 2010

Today in Awful Warseer Tactics Part 4

Ready to cringe?  I have delved deeply into the bowels of Warseer and emerged covered in the faint odor of string cheese and monster energy drink.  But it wasn't all for naught, as I have discovered another thread whereby a simple fool asks an honest questions and receives terrible answers in return.

I'll kick this bad boy off by saying its about Dual Last lists.  For years the internet told everyone that dual lash was OP and the best thing ever.  Then people realized it wasn't so great and now the pendulum has swung back the other way with every cretin on the internet saying its crap and ridiculously easy to beat.  The truth lies somewhere in the middle.  The list is still pretty decent.  Will it beat an experienced 5th edition player with a solid mech list?  Probably not.  Will it beat your average noob with a battleforce list?  Yeah, it probably will.  It may even catch some good players unaware and steal a win or two from even a strong player.  

By far the most infuriating thing about this thread are the players who chime in bashing the list talking about how easy it is to beat.  I know full well I could play a tuned dual lash list and beat any of these scrubs into oblivion.  I'm not a great player trying to brag, in fact I'm pretty mediocre.  But I can detect bull shit and I know these Warseer scrubs talk a way better game than they play.  So on to the madness...
Hashulaman:  Is taking 2 slannesh princes mandatory to even have a chance with winning in a CSM army anymore? Can't we make a Nurgle or Tzeentch DP work? I don't mind runing 1 lash prince, but honestly with all the mech, 1 would be enough as to me a second would be a waste.

Besides it seems to me we have overlooked some of the other Prince setups and everyone expects a Lash Prince and have made precautions agaisnt that. Taking a different setup would not only be a nice change of pace (for me anyways), but it could throw off the game of those who plan to fight lash princes. Hell, alot of these players probably go mech so they can't be lashed that much. 

A fair assessment.  Warptime Princes are pretty strong and demand a response.  The correct answer is, if you are playing a dedicated Lash List, run two princes.  If you are running something other than 9 Obliterators, 5 units of Plague Marines etc., then you ARE probably better off with Warptime.  Lash works when the whole list is built to synergize with itself.  If you aren't going to do that, don't run Lash.
skarsniktheunclean: unless it says so in the codex,nothing is ever mandatory!!!!


Listen, Matt, the question was clearly intended to be "is it mandatory from a competitive standpoint" not "is it required per the codex."  Your answer is inane, and you're dumb.  Cheers, Nike.

eyescross: 2 Nurgle Warptime Princes can put the pressure on anyone, too. 

Thread over.  As we all know, it is never that easy.

Thud: No, it's not. Lash is overrated, situational, dependent on a specific build and easily negated.

If you go up against decent players with a Lash army you'll find yourself being dismantled fairly quickly. I suggest going for a more balanced approach that does not hinge on gimmicks. Warptime Daemon Princes are certainly better than their Lash counterparts, but I'm not a fan of big spending in the HQ section in general. 

You're on the right track but you lose credibility with your "dismantled quickly" line.  Two lists that are identical except one is dual lash princes and the other is dual warptime princes aren't going create situations where the dual lash list gets dismantled easily but the dual warptime will give a good game.  There is is a fair amount of parity between the two.  Lash IS overrated you're right, but you yourself are overrating Warptime.

One Mean Duck: I think the question should, "are obliterators mandatory?" Because armies without them don't win and chaos with them do... at least as far as I have seen 

No, asshole, the question is what the question was.  You are raising a different point, and the point is wrong anyway.  Go play in traffic.

Latro_:  In 5th ed also known as Rhinohammer, lash is no where near as feared as it was in early 5th. As soon as everyone realised mech was amazing they soon stopped whindging lash was broken. 

I've never heard anyone intelligent use the term 'rhinohammer.'  

Robpro: lash is always a good, general purpose thing to have. Unless you can win the game without ever killing a tank, there will be guys to lash (typically by turn 2). 

Wow an intelligent response.  You mean people with Lash lists bring anti-tank tank weapons to make it possible to lash people?  That's crazy!  

VonMansteinNo, its still 30 points to get it and it prevents you from taking Mark of Nurgle. Prince is ussually dead before getting Lash off 1 time. 

Do you understand how much firepower it takes to bring down a Daemon Prince in cover?  That's a lot of missile launcher shots.  Sure, many armies have that kind of firepower.  But is that how you're going to use it?  You're going to fire 15 missiles at a single prince and ignore the chaos rhinos/melta-bunkers?  Please do that, and lose the game.

Glabro:  Take a lash if you play a Slaanesh or a more generalist list. That is, unless you are one of those players who ignores fluff and fun in the name of power in lists. 

I knew it wouldn't take long before some idiot used the 'f' word.

Aussiesocks:  If they can counter lash with 35pt rhinos, your warptime-less daemon princes are close to useless. 

Oh let's play this game.  You counter my 25 point Lash with a 35 point Rhino.  Hmmmm.  I counter your 35 point Rhino with my 10 point meltagun.  You lose.

Erwos:  I play fluffy Iron Warriors. I don't take a lash.

Good for you?

Evil Sponge:  Lash has pretty much been nerfed into oblivion since 5th and the subsequent codex updates.

This is the typical overreaction I was talking about.  Things the internet thinks are good are beyond broken, things the internet thinks are bad are "nerfed to oblivion."  Stop with this sky is falling bullshit.  Is Lash weaker than it was at the height of 4th edition?  Yes.  Is it "nerfed to oblivion?"  No.

Grey Knights Rock:  I think that regular chaos space marines in a large squad are very effective. 1 point less than space marines, and they can be taken in squads of 20. a mass of bolter fire is a very useful thing against tyranids and orks.

Do you even have any idea what the topic at hand is?

Jonathan I Hmm there seems to be a lot of black or white opinions flying about that don’t take into account tournament meta.
I’m going to blame Stelek for that one.

What does Stelek have to do with it?  I agree that there are black and white opinions being given by dumb people who have no right talking about anything, but I am willing to bet the anti-Lash crowd here did NOT get their opinion from Stelek.

Valek:  Honestly Lash is crap. to many mech, to many hoods, wolves crap dispel. Not to mention you have to make your army so you can take the most out of it. 

Those same criticisms apply to Warptime.  It's not like Warptime is easier to get off under a hood than Lash is.

Jonathan IThere are 133 tournament gamers in West Australia, out of those 133 the vast majority don’t run 5th edition lists. 

That's because there is heavy comp there, and 5th edition lists are punished.

VonMarstein:  I never go with Lash to tournements and trust me, I perform very well. 

Go on and toot your own horn.  How many major non-comped tournaments have you performed very well in?  You place in your local 'Ard Boyz?  So do I.  But I don't claim to be good.

Kane40k:  Ive actualy won LESS games with Dual Lash lists. Choose a Play Style that you like. you will enjoy the game more. Do those Princes of Nurgle and Tzeentch!  

Choose a play style you like.  So long as it's my play style.

Apathyman:  In fact, the more mech that exists in an opponent's army, the less Lash is effective. Nurgle/Wings/Warptime is a great all around kit that's good no matter who your target is. 

What a stunning revelation.  Thank you for explaining the relationship between Lash and Mech opponents.  No one has proffered that before in this thread.

And with that, the thread and my sanity come to an end.



  1. I really truly enjoy this series. I would love to see your replies in these cases- even if I think your opinion is bunk, I'd love to see it spelled out with rationale behind it.

  2. I usually don't get involved in those threads. It really is pissing in the wind to try to argue rationally with forum group think.

  3. Sure, but what about here? Sometimes I am obtuse and need the reason bull crap is bull crap spelled out to me, followed by "and here's what I think".

  4. My comments are in orange. And I spell out what I think at the beginning.

    On a scale of 1-10 I think Dual Lash/9 Obliterators lists are a strong 5. I think the internet rates them a 2. I think that 80% of the people who comment about them are using groupthink to determine that they are "so bad" and not actual play experience.

    I just think the whole thing is hilarious because 18 months ago Dual Lash was considered an unbeatable I win button, and now it's considered laughably beatable by the same internet scrubs who still play the same lists as they did then.

    So what changed? Certainly not the scrubs' playstyles or lists which are just as bad as ever. So the only thing that really changed was the herd logic and groupthink of the internet. Once it started being cool to think Dual Lash super sucks the perception changed rapidly.