Thursday, June 30, 2011

40k-metrics: The Anatomy of Non-Competitive Lists Part Three

Hey all, sorry about the delay in pushing the rest of this series out, but I’m working on it!  In part one we looked at a Tyranid list whose offensive ability was very limited.  In part two we looked at a fluffy Thousand Sons list that struggled largely due to its inability to kill enemy vehicles.  In part three, we will look at a World Eaters list that also has a strong fluff basis, but seems to acknowledge that it needs some shooting so it does make some concessions in that regard.


 First the list…

2000 Points Chaos Space Marines

HQ
Kharn the Betrayer - 165
Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Khorne - 140

Elite
4 x Terminators w/ Lightning Claws, Icon of Khorne - 190
Dedicated Chaos Land Raider w/ Daemonic Possession - 240
Dreadnought w/ Additional Close Combat Weapon w/ Twin-Linked Bolter - 100

Troop
6 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Skull Champion, Power Fist, Personal Icon, Rhino - 206
6 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Skull Champion, Power Fist,  Rhino - 201
6 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Skull Champion, Power Fist,  Rhino - 201
5 x Summoned Lesser Daemon - 65
5 x Summoned Lesser Daemon - 65

Heavy Support
3 x Obliterators - 225
Predator w/ Heavy Bolters - 100
Predator w/ Heavy Bolters – 100

Just looking at the list, we can guess it will have very competitive close combat potential, but probably won’t shoot too well.  That is, after all, what you’d expect a World Eater’s list to do.

Let’s see what the numbers show…

World Eaters
DMS
DMCC
DRPG
DLRPG
Notes
Kharne
0.11
5.06
15.00
11.90

Prince
0.00
2.61
9.00
5.40

6x Berserkers
0.65
5.13
0.00
0.00
Fist
6x Berserkers
0.65
5.13
0.00
0.00
Fist
6x Berserkers
0.65
5.13
0.00
0.00
Fist
5x Lesser Daemons
0.00
1.23
0.00
0.00

5x Lesser Daemons
0.00
1.23
0.00
0.00

3x Oblits
7.65
3.82
9.30
6.00

2x Predator
1.60
0.00
2.18
0.00
Dakka
4x Terminators
0.00
7.50
0.00
0.00
Khorne, TLC
Land Raider
1.27
0.00
5.00
1.13
Possession
Dreadnought
0.00
1.70
5.00
3.30
2x CCW


















Totals:
12.58
38.54
45.48
27.73


Pretty much what you might have guessed.

It can’t shoot infantry.  Some might say, “that’s OK because at least it can kill them in CC!”  Which works until such time as it doesn’t.  If your anti-infantry plan is to bully people in close combat, it will eventually fail when you run into a list that CC’s better than you.  Even with Furious Charge, a marine stat line and Grey Knight’s point cost will eventually run into an enemy you can’t beat in CC.  At that point, you become the gunline.  Better hope you have a gunline.  Unfortunately, this list doesn’t.  Fatal flaw #1.

It can CC.  The CC score is definitely in the more than adequate range for competitive lists.  But 5th Edition is largely dominated by mech lists.  You might be excellent at killing men in combat, but to get them in combat you have to blow up their ride.  About that…

The World Eaters only score about half of what we would expect a mech marine list to be able to do in terms of anti-light mech.  This is fatal flaw #2.  A CC list has to be in CC quickly, to avoid being shot to death.  To get into CC quickly, you have to knock out transports quickly.  This list just doesn’t have that ability.  The three Obliterators do a fine job, but 3 of them are not sufficient to the job.  The Daemon Prince and the Dreadnought also have decent scores, but based entirely off of close combat.  The slow Dreadnought and lightly armored Prince are fire magnets and will have a tough time ever doing that job.  But the biggest problem of all is a codex flaw… Berserkers don’t carry melta weapons.  If those three Berserker units each had 2 meltaguns it would bring the score to nearly respectable in that regard.  As is, there is just no substitute for it.

The heavy mech score is actually pretty good, mostly because of the heavy hitting power of the Prince and Dreadnought.  Those are both CC solutions and clearly on the risky side of the gamble.

In summary, this list went 0-4 because it couldn’t kill light mech and couldn’t deal with infantry.  Are you getting a sense of Déjà vu?  I feel like a broken record, but it’s pretty clear by now what it takes to be a competitive 5th edition list: being able to kill infantry (CC or Shooting or both) and also being able kill swathes of light mech.  All the winning lists score well in those categories.  All the lists that struggled have done poorly.  Granted, it’s not the largest sample size to draw a 100% conclusion from but we are already seeing what I hypothesized.  Namely, that the good lists would share common traits and the bad lists would also share common traits.

8 comments:

  1. I would think that Kharn's anti-vehicle scores would be somewhat higher than 0.00 given 7 S6 attacks on the charge that always hit on 2+ with 2d6 armor pen, not to mention a BS 5 plasma pistol on the way in...

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  2. You're right I skipped those and never went back to them when I finished the rest. I'll update it soon.

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  3. What does DMS/DMCC/DRPG and DLRPG mean in the table?

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  4. Nemesis: read every article I've posted for the last two weeks.

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  5. Heh, I'm loving the theme of Godhammer Landraiders in the terribad lists.

    Actually, seeing these lists makes me a little sad as well.

    But it's interesting to see the numbers at the very least. :)

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  6. Noticed you didn't give the bezerkers any rhino damage per game. What about S5 on charge plus S9 fist?

    Also do you not factor grenades into the picture? Most modern marine lists have loads of krak grenades, which could skew lists pretty heavily toward anti-rhino in ways you will rarely see.

    Started doing my own calcs based on your methods and assumed you'd figured in a lot more CC into DRPG and DLRPG then you appear to be.

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  7. I didn't give a unit CC anti-mech stats unless I felt that the unit was designed to be anti-mech. A tactical squad with krak grenades is not, in my opinion, designed to be anti-mech CC unit the way a unit of Nobz or a Carnifex is.

    It really is a gut call, but the ability of CC penetrations to give unrealistic numbers is high, and I err on the side of minimizing it.

    Your mileage may vary, but if you want meaningful numbers, leave the CC out of anti-mech as much as possible.

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  8. Nikephoros, can you go into your calculations a bit more? I'm finishing up a 40k calculator that would spit out these stats but I'm getting different numbers than you when go for testing.

    For example, 2xDakka Preds. Here are my calculations for DMS P(hit)*P(wound)*P(fail save)*# shots

    Autocannon: (4/6)*(5/6)*(2/6)*2 = 0.37
    2x HB: (4/6)*(4/6)*(2/6)*6 = 0.89
    Total: 1.26 per pred whereas you say 1.6 for TWO preds?

    Same preds for DRPG P(hit)*P(Pen)*# shots*5 turns

    Autocannon: (4/6)*(2/6)*2*5 = 2.22
    2x HB: 0.00

    So two preds should be 4.44 vice your 2.28.

    What am I doing differently?

    ReplyDelete