Tuesday, June 21, 2011

40k-metric: Laeroth's Black Templars

Marshal Laeroth over at Implausible Nature wanted me to breakdown his mech Templar list that he intends to bring to NOVA this year.  I very much respect the work he does on his blog and on Bolter and Chainsword for the BT community, and I am very sure that his is one of the best BT lists out there.

Here is the list:

HQ:
* Emperor's Champion w/ Black Sword, Bolt Pistol, Armor of Faith, and the Vow: "Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch." [110]

Elites:
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]
* Sword Brethren Terminators: 5 Terminators w/ 2 Cyclone Missile Launchers, 5 Storm Bolters, 5 Power Fists, and Tank-Hunters. [265]

Troops:
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]
* Crusader Squad: 5 Initiates w/ 3 Bolters, 1 Plasmagun & 1 Lascannon. Mounted in a Razorback w/ Twin-Linked Lascannons and Searchlights. [192]

Fast Attack:
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]
* Land Speeder Squadron: 1 Land Speeder w/ 1 Heavy Bolter and 1 Typhoon Missile Launcher. [70]

Heavy Support:
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126]
* Predator Destructor w/ Autocannon, Lascannon Side-Sponsons, and Searchlights. [126]

Total Points: [1996] 


Before I did the breakdown, I asked him what his thoughts on his own list was.  I wanted to know from his playtesting experience where he felt the list was strong and where he was nervous about its weakness.  My hope was that his real world impressions would somewhat mirror the scores the list generated.  Because, you know, that is the point of the exercise.  His response was...


Well, traditionally my problem area is killing hordes of infantry.  Doesn't matter whether its in combat or in the shooting phase.  I do have the tools to get it done, but it relies on them getting to mid-range where my bolters come into play (which is a dangerous proposition against some horde armies).

I don't believe that I have any problems killing MEQ in the shooting phase, with the huge numbers of AP2/AP3 weapons at my disposal.  And a vast majority of those cause instant death. 


Unfortunately, that comes with a huge disadvantage in CC-ability.  Traditionally, my dual-CML terminators have acted as my CC unit and they have done well in that role, provided it wasn't against dedicated CC-units.  I've found that they are even effective against such units as TWC, provided the unit isn't jam packed with power weapons.  They also are my primary bubblewrap.  But I also have my EC for that duty.

My AV14 killing potential is probably a bit lower as well, since I don't have any melta weapons in the list.  However, in my games, I've found that I simply have too many Str 9 weapons for a Land Raider to handle and I have almost always managed to stop them from getting to me, whether by glancing or by straight up destroying them.  But if I don't, then its damage control as I can't stop them once they hit my lines.  Fortunately, there are other modes of preventing them from getting there such as movement blocking, speed bumps, etc.  And, as you mentioned, the top tables will very likely not feature lists with Land Raiders.

So to sum up, he feels his anti-infantry is adequate, his CC is a definite weakness, his anti-light mech is very strong, and he is slightly vulnerable to heavy armor.  Many of his games come down to whether he is able to destroy the transports of dedicated CC units before they get to him.  As that goes, the game goes.

So what do the scores say?


LaerothDMSDMCCDRPGDLRPGNotes
EC0.112.250.000.00Abhor
5 Terminators3.345.758.892.132 CML Tank Hunters
5 Terminators3.345.758.892.132 CML Tank Hunters
5 Crusaders2.330.834.360.52Las/Plas, Bolters
5 Crusaders2.330.834.360.52Las/Plas, Bolters
5 Crusaders2.330.834.360.52Las/Plas, Bolters
5 Crusaders2.330.834.360.52Las/Plas, Bolters
Razor0.750.002.910.71TLLC
Razor0.750.002.910.71TLLC
Razor0.750.002.910.71TLLC
Razor0.750.002.910.71TLLC
3 Predators4.520.0019.673.12AutoLas
3 Typhoons4.710.0010.000.003 CML 3 HB
Totals:29.8717.0776.5112.30

The scores pretty much confirm exactly how he says the army performs on the tabletop.  Which is what we want, since we want to be able to look at the scores of a list and predict how it will work compared to similar lists.

His anti-infantry shooting matches up very well compared to the winning NOVA lists from last year.  Why?  In addition to a lot of AP1/2/3 in general, he eshews melta and plays plasma.   Double-tapped plasma is very strong, especially against the dedicated CC units he fears the most.

His close combat is definitely a weakness.  But after looking at Mark Ferrik's 4-0 BA list from last year's NOVA, it seems high enough to be competitive... assuming the shooty is there, which is it.

His anti-light mech is very strong.  Again comparable to Mark Ferrik's list.  And unlike Ferrik, his numbers are mostly derived from 48" weaponry, rather than 6".  That difference means a ton, especially when your CC ability is what it is.  One statistical note that I thought was interesting that discovered while doing this: a double tapped Plasma Gun has the exact same chance to penetrate AV11 as does a lascannon.  The difference is 36" of range.

Laeroth is rightly worried about his inability to kill Land Raiders.  His scores are fairly low.  But Tony won the event with a score of below 20, and while it's fair to say that over 8 rounds of play he will surely run into some AV14, the chances of him running into a triple raider/triple monolith list are slight.  Incidentally, since most of his anti-14 is Str9 based rather than melta, he is actually better positioned to kill Monoliths than lists that derive their score from melta.  Food for thought.

My thoughts:  The list has definite strengths and weaknesses, however, unlike Mark Ferrik's Blood Angels, Laeroth's strengths do a good job of covering up his weaknesses.  The lists are very similar, and I would suggest that this BT list has every chance to do as well as Mark's BA list did last year.

14 comments:

  1. Wow. Quite a bit more analysis than I expected. I appreciate you taking the time to do it! Also, thank you for the kind words. :)

    Your numbers did a pretty darn good job of representing what happens in my games. Against LR-spam, the success of the list relies on my Lascannons being able to knock them out of commission. Or at least, stop them moving.

    Basically, as you noted, if I can de-mech my opponent early, I will win. If I don't, it certainly isn't an auto-lose, but the game is much closer than the list likes to be. Foot MEQ lists such as Loganwing and DoA BA have literally poofed in my playtesting, so that hasn't been a weakness that I've noticed. Shooting definitely covers my deficiency in CC.

    However, I'm curious if a stat for GEQ and/or Orc killing power could be added? This would help measure the list's capabilities against horde armies. I couldn't find any comment in your posts regarding this matter.

    Do you mind if repost this on my blog?

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  2. Please do.

    Here is what I think about GEQ or OEQ.

    Who cares how many t3 5+ bodies you can kill? I guess if they are playing a blob list it matters but really the ability to kill AV12 dictates how easily you beat good guard lists.

    As far as Orks go, it would be worth knowing... except the ability to kill orks does not correlate to winning tournaments.

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  3. I’ve been following your series of articles on this topic. I also think that 40k would really benefit from better statistical analysis of lists and army books.
    I’ve been working on a list of mine and figured out the stats (transports are included in the unit’s stats):
    2 HQ
    Company Command Squad, Company Commander, Melta bombs, 4 x Veteran with Meltagun, 1 x Astropath
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 180 Points
    DMS: 3.68 | DMC: 0.722 | DRPG: 2.69 | DLRPG: 1.566
    Company Command Squad, Company Commander, Melta bombs, 4 x Veteran with Meltagun
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 150 Points
    DMS: 3.68 | DMC: 0.722 | DRPG: 2.69 | DLRPG: 1.566
    6 Troops
    Veteran Squad, Demolitions, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 185 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    Veteran Squad, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 155 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    Veteran Squad, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 155 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    Veteran Squad, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 155 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    Veteran Squad, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 155 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    Veteran Squad, 3 x Veteran with Meltagun, Veteran Sergeant
    + Chimera Transport, Multi-laser, Heavy flamer -> 55 Pts.
    - - - > 155 Points
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167
    2 Fast Attack
    1 Vendetta
    - - - > 130 Points
    DMS: 1.875 | DMC: - | DRPG: 1.5 | DLRPG: 0.375
    1 Vendetta
    - - - > 130 Points
    DMS: 1.875 | DMC: - | DRPG: 1.5 | DLRPG: 0.375
    3 Heavy Support
    Hydra Flak Tank Battery
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    - - - > 150 Points
    DMS: 1.667 | DMC: - | DRPG: 2 | DLRPG: -
    Hydra Flak Tank Battery
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    - - - > 150 Points
    DMS: 1.667 | DMC: - | DRPG: 2 | DLRPG: -
    Hydra Flak Tank Battery
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    + Hydra Flak Tank, Heavy flamer -> 75 Pts.
    - - - > 150 Points
    DMS: 1.667 | DMC: - | DRPG: 2 | DLRPG: -
    Total Points: 2000
    Total Stats
    DMS: 40.157 | DMC: 8.444 | DRPG: 134.444 | DLRPG: 61.806
    -----
    May I ask for your opinion on the list and how it compares with the other lists you’ve analyzed? Also, I was changing this list from 1850 to 2000. What do you think about working out the points for both versions and picking the one with the higher stats? The question at issue was whether to go with the extra HQ or adding an extra Hydra to two of my squadrons.

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  4. I honestly cant make heads or tails of that the way it's formatted.

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  5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  6. Sorry about that. It’s the German online codex format. I had regrets after posting. How’s this:

    2 x CCS, 4 Melta, Chimera
    DMS: 3.68 | DMC: 0.722 | DRPG: 2.69 | DLRPG: 1.566

    6 x Veterans, 3 Melta, Chimera
    DMS: 4.01 | DMC: 1.167 | DRPG: 2.08 | DLRPG: 1.167

    2 x Vendetta
    DMS: 1.875 | DMC: - | DRPG: 1.5 | DLRPG: 0.375

    3 x Hydra x 2
    DMS: 1.667 | DMC: - | DRPG: 2 | DLRPG: -

    Total Stats
    DMS: 40.157 | DMC: 8.444 | DRPG: 134.444 | DLRPG: 61.806

    I did not do 5 rounds of shooting for DRPG and DLRPG for each specific choice. I just multiplied the total by 5.

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  7. So I did a version of the stats taking into account different ranges (and a minor correction) and made a contour graph to show the army's effective firepower over 6-48" range.

    Range | MDS | DRPG | DLRPG
    6" | 47.12 | 134.44 | 54.30
    12" | 47.12 | 98.33 | 3.75
    24" | 15.26 | 55 | 3.75
    36" | 12.08 | 55 | 3.75
    48" | 8.75 | 45 | 3.75

    http://i633.photobucket.com/albums/uu56/omeedg/40k/FirepowerMap.jpg

    I think it's an interesting way to look at an army's firepower.

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  8. That is a very cool way to break it down. Definitely great food for thought.

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  9. How do you get 1.51 DMS per turn from a one shot TLLC razorback?

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  10. Out of curiosity, what is your explanation for using 5 rounds of firing for penetration stats, but only one round for anti-infantry stats?

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  11. I could be wrong, but isn't all those stats assuming a 5 game turn at maximum firing potential? I don't think its a single turn only.

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  12. Good catch Malis, I made an error there. I'll correct it.

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  13. I am loving the series. I do think it may be worth looking at how many Boyz you can kill though. Killing Orks may not win tournaments, but it can certainly course you to lose them if you have to play them in the first couple of rounds.

    @Marshal Laeroth, if you are worried about Raiders have you thought about replacing the Lazcannon in one or two of the squads with a Multi-melta? or do you troops not tend to stay in their Transports?

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  14. Also I have put a couple of Tyranid lists through the ringer. Fee free to re-post here if you want.

    http://lyracian.blogspot.com/2011/06/40k-metrics-tyranid-edition.html

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