The last of the 0-4 lists, finally. These lists have been fairly interesting in terms of how they compare to the 4-0 lists. I think most people would not have predicted that the 0-4 lists would have been as far in terms of scores from the 4-0 lists. Heck, before I even started this whole metric project I assumed that most lists were essentially the same at any points level. It was only once I started doing the good lists and seeing how different they were amongst themselves that I started to hypothesize that the uncompetitive lists would look very different.
But today’s list emphasizes the point that looks can be deceiving. On paper, this list doesn’t look that poor. Sure, it has some obvious inefficiencies that could be tweaked to make it better, but all in all at first glance you think “pretty ordinary mech marine list.”
2000 Points Space Marines
HQ
Marneus Calgar - 250
Pedro Cantor - 175
Elite
7 x Sternguard w/ 2 Combi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Rhino - 230
7 x Sternguard w/ 3 Combi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Rhino - 235
Troop
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist/Combi-Melta, Rhino - 245
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist/Combi-Melta, Rhino - 245
5 x Tactical Marines w/ Plasmaback - 165
5 x Tactical Marines w/ Plasmaback - 165
Fast Attack
Land Speeder w/ Typhoon Missile Launcher - 90
Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon - 100
Thunderfire Cannon – 100
HQ
Marneus Calgar - 250
Pedro Cantor - 175
Elite
7 x Sternguard w/ 2 Combi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Rhino - 230
7 x Sternguard w/ 3 Combi-Melta, Heavy Flamer, Rhino - 235
Troop
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist/Combi-Melta, Rhino - 245
10 x Tactical Marines w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, Powerfist/Combi-Melta, Rhino - 245
5 x Tactical Marines w/ Plasmaback - 165
5 x Tactical Marines w/ Plasmaback - 165
Fast Attack
Land Speeder w/ Typhoon Missile Launcher - 90
Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon - 100
Thunderfire Cannon – 100
So the first things we notice as weaknesses are Calgar and Thunderfires. 450 points is nearly 1/5th of the list in 3 units that aren’t considered terribly competitive. One could only wonder how much higher the list would score if the Thunderfires and Calgar were traded for 3 Dakka Preds and 2 more Typhoons or 3x Rifleman Dreds.
But as constituted, we have a very shooty leaning mech marine list. Let’s see how the sucker scores…
| Mech Marines | DMS | DMCC | DRPG | DLRPG | Notes |
| Calgar | 1.28 | 3.91 | 0.00 | 0.00 | Power armor |
| Pedro | 0.56 | 2.80 | 0.00 | 0.00 | |
| 7x Stern Guard | 3.53 | 2.31 | 1.89 | 1.20 | Rhino, 3x combi-melta, heavy flamer |
| 7x Stern Guard | 3.53 | 1.73 | 1.24 | 0.79 | Rhino, 2x combi-melta, heavy flamer |
| 10x Tac | 3.18 | 2.73 | 6.82 | 4.36 | melta, combi-melta, fist, multi-melta, Rhino |
| 10x Tac | 3.18 | 2.73 | 6.82 | 4.36 | melta, combi-melta, fist, multi-melta, Rhino |
| 5x Tac | 1.09 | 0.83 | 0.00 | 0.00 | |
| 5x Tac | 1.09 | 0.83 | 0.00 | 0.00 | |
| Plasmaback | 2.06 | 0.00 | 5.08 | 0.52 | |
| Plasmaback | 2.06 | 0.00 | 5.08 | 0.52 | |
| Typhoon | 2.00 | 0.00 | 3.30 | 0.00 | |
| 2x Thunderfires | 13.46 | 0.00 | 9.60 | 0.00 | |
| Totals: | 37.02 | 17.86 | 39.83 | 11.75 | |
Pretty abysmal compared to competitive mech lists we’ve looked at. Obvious weaknesses that are revealed from the metric…
1. Only two units that are a serious threat to AV14. This in and of itself isn’t a game break, because as we have seen, the one place you can skimp and get away with it is anti-AV14. However, if you are weak on AV14 and weak in other places it paints a pretty complete picture.
2. The anti-light mech is very low compared to competitive lists. Most of the mech-marine lists of various flavors in the competitive bracket have scored in the 60’s or higher. It’s too early in this process to say a list can’t win with a score below 50, but it’s really starting to look like it.
3. Can’t fight in CC. Even with Pedro and Calgar sitting in a unit of Sternguard, this isn’t a list that can fight in CC. A fair size unit of Genestealers can eat that super unit for breakfast in CC and then move on. This is a list that HAS to kill you at range, yet it doesn’t have the firepower to kill mech at range. You can’t both suck at CC and suck at killing mech at range. That is a Fatal Flaw.
4. Hey it can shoot infantry dead! But it can’t get infantry out of their boxes. As the Thousand Sons list showed, killing infantry with shooting by itself can’t win games. You need the anti-mech and/or CC component to make that effective.
Unlike the 1k Sons list, this one has potential to be competitive with a few tweaks.
-Calgar
-2x Thunderfire
+2x lascannons per Sternguard squad
+3x Rifleman Dreads
+1 Typhoon Landspeeder
+2x combi-flamers on plasmaback sarges
Those changes would go a super long way towards getting some wins.
And a MotF so you can buy Rifles + Sterns.
ReplyDeleteI've been reading your articles with great enthusiasm for the past couple of weeks and been using this to benchmark all my own lists (Tyranid Player).
ReplyDeleteDo you think it's possible to build a list by taking the highest scoring units in each bracket and aiming for ideal ratio's of shooty/cc/mech/raider killing?
Have been working on this but keep coming back to a very similar list to Jay's nids. I play at 1500 however so I'm working on a per 1k points system and setting minimums for mech and raider killing, whilst still keeping the maximum CC power a nid list can bring. Will post results later if anyone is interested.
"Do you think it's possible to build a list by taking the highest scoring units in each bracket and aiming for ideal ratio's of shooty/cc/mech/raider killing?"
ReplyDeletePossible certainly but more than likely not the 'best' list. Remember there are a lot of factors these Metrics don't take into account which you need to put together yourself and that's what will make a good list.
OK taking this theory into account I made an attempt at writing 3 lists (or adapting current accepted competitive lists) that would hopefully hit all the bases whilst still keeping some element of common sense (that's the idea anyway) I came up with the following 3 lists for Tyranids:
ReplyDeleteTervigon Based:
DMS DMCC DRPG DLRPG
Prime, Dual Bonesword, Scything Talons 90 0.00 2.07 0.00 0.00
Prime, Dual Bonesword, Scything Talons 90 0.00 2.07 0.00 0.00
Hive Guard x 2 100 0.74 0.83 6.67 0.00
Hive Guard x 2 100 0.74 0.83 6.67 0.00
Tervigon, Catalyst, Adrenals, Toxins, Cluster Spines 195 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Tervigon, Catalyst, Adrenals, Toxins, Cluster Spines 195 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Termagants x 10 50 0.83 2.50 0.00 0.00
Termagants x 10 50 0.83 2.50 0.00 0.00
Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Dessicator, Cluster Spines 265 2.22 0.83 4.17 3.06
Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Dessicator, Cluster Spines 265 2.22 0.83 4.17 3.06
Average Spawn x45 3.75 11.25 0.00 0.00
1400 13.01 25.40 30.56 8.89
T6 Spam:
DMS DMCC DRPG DLRPG
Prime, Dual Bonesword, Scything Talons 90 0.00 2.07 0.00 0.00
Hive Guard x 2 100 0.74 0.83 6.67 0.00
Hive Guard x 2 100 0.74 0.83 6.67 0.00
Hive Guard x 2 100 0.74 0.83 6.67 0.00
Tervigon, Catalyst, Adrenals, Toxins, Cluster Spines 195 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Tervigon, Catalyst, Adrenals, Toxins, Cluster Spines 195 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Termagaunts x 10 50 0.83 2.50 0.00 0.00
Termagaunts x 10 50 0.83 2.50 0.00 0.00
Trygon 200 0.83 5.83 20.00 6.25
Trygon 200 0.83 5.83 20.00 6.25
Trygon 200 0.83 5.83 20.00 6.25
Average Spawn x45 3.75 11.25 0.00 0.00
1480 8.06 28.73 88.89 21.53
“The Numbers Game”:
DMS DMCC DRPG DLRPG
Tervigon, Catalyst, Cluster Spines 175 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Tervigon, Catalyst, Cluster Spines 175 0.83 0.83 4.44 1.39
Hive Guard x 3 150 1.11 1.25 10.00 0.00
Hive Guard x 3 150 1.11 1.25 10.00 0.00
Zoanthrope x 2 - Mycetic Spore 160 2.75 0.50 4.07 4.07
Genestealers x 13, Toxins 221 0.00 10.83 0.00 0.00
Genestealers x 12, Toxins 204 0.00 10.00 0.00 0.00
Tyrannofex, Rupture Cannon, Dessicator, Cluster Spines 265 2.22 0.83 4.17 3.06
Average Spawn x45 3.75 5.00 0.00 0.00
1500 12.61 31.33 37.13 9.91
Overview:
DMS DMCC DRPG DLRPG
Tervigon 13.01 25.40 30.56 8.89
T6 Spam 8.06 28.73 88.89 21.53
Numbers 12.61 31.33 37.13 9.91
Any comments on the viability of the above lists and reflection on the numbers would be much appreciated. It’s possible I’m taking it too far but without pushing the boundaries and trying these things out we won’t learn.
Thanks for reading,
Nidnub
It's not always beneficial to take the units with the highest #'s. Timmah's article on points efficiency says that maybe rather than going for the highest single-unit numbers you should play a list with the most points efficient units.
ReplyDeleteA one model unit that scores a 9 in a category for 300 points is probably worse than a 3 model unit that scores a 3 for 100 points. Barring some other special rule, ofcourse. But all things being equal, efficiency should be your measuring stick for units.
Oh, and don't forget to cap your CC scores against vehicles at 15. Your T6 spam has too high of a DRPG score because of that.
ReplyDeleteHi Nike, thanks for the hint on capping at 15, I forgot to factor that in.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of the efficiencies however this has been calculated, the Tyrannofex is the only one that stands out as not having the best efficiency scores, however it is able to reach out 48” rather than a Zoanthropes 18” so was included on this basis
Marneus Calgar auto shits your army list.
ReplyDeleteThe simple act of excluding him and using 250 pts into a bunch of anything else instantly improves the list.
Calgar is simply waay too expensive.
ReplyDeletePedro has an use, if you buy like 30 sternguard.
Thunderfire Cannons...they are vastly meh and they need a really, really specific army to function.
So, for an average SM list:
-Calgar
-Pedro
-Thunderfire Cannons
-Extra Sternguard Models
-1 Combi guy from the squad of 3
+3 preds
+1 Sternguard squad.
+Speeders.
@GX1080,
ReplyDeleteYou still need a HQ of some sort; usually the Libby with Null Zone. I think a Kantor/Sternguard list can work it just needs more anti-mech.