Sorry for no post yesterday, I had serious work drama that isn't totally resolved yet so I'm pretty well distracted and not too happy about various changes. But I was thinking about Black Templars at 2000 points. Previously, I have relied on using TLLC Razorbacks to bring extra firepower out of the anti-tank slot.
Obviously, those cost a lot of points. At least 90 points each before you add on smoke launchers or extra armor. After talking about it with Timmah, it's way more effective to put the Las/Plas shooty Crusaders in Rhinos and add firepower in other more cost effective slots. A persuasive argument. Losing the 1+1 sucks, but honestly it's just too expensive at 2k points. I think it works for Templars at 2.5k, but 2k, nah.
His other good point was that the mid-field double melta squads being 5 man min/max isn't really good once outside of their transport. 5 guys, two of whom aren't gear for CC, aren't scaring anybody. They don't have the combat ability to take objectives, nor the bodies to hold objectives. If they can sit unmolested in their rhinos firing double meltas all game, wonderful. But what chances is it going to be that easy? Another persuasive argument. So much in line with the recent backlash against min/maxing it turns out that in this case adding sub-optimal bodies to a squad will make them more effective.
So with these ideas in mind, what did I brew up?
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| No Marshal in this list. |
Black Templar 2k
Emperor's Champ
-Abhor
=110
[I really wanted AAC, but points being what they are, this will do.]
5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265
5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265
[These are the meat to the list. They can sit back in cover getting 2+/4++ and drop 4 str9 shots per turn. I don't really have to explain very much why these are good. They aren't scary close combat units, but with the EC attached they are strong enough to discourage anyone except dedicated close combat units.]
3x1 Landspeeders
-Typhoon
=210
[These are seriously undercosted in the BT dex now, no real explanation needed. Why not take more? They are paper thin armor and while they may get more shots per point than the terminators, the question you have to ask is who will get more shots per game? Clearly, the terminators, while shooting fewer times per turn, have the better chance at still being around to shoot at thing turn 6. I don't want to say I'm down on them, because they are a great unit, but I'm just leery of sinking more than 15% of the points in my list on AV10 open topped armor.]
3x1 Predator Destructors
-Searchlights
-Lascannon sponsons
=378
[The argument here is dropping one of them, adding two more Typhoons, or a cheap Castellan for Rites of Battle. I don't know if it's a good argument or not, but I'm inclined to think that 1 AV13 hull is better than 2 A10 open topped.]
2x10 Initiates with BP/CCW
-Rhino
-Smoke
-Meltagun
-Multimelta
=466
[So these are the midfield/forward troop units. They really wish they had AAC to make them better at seizing forward objectives but the points aren't really there. At very least they are a capable dual melta unit who are at worst better than Tactical Squads in close combat.]
2x5 Initiates with Bolters
-Lascannon
-Plasma Gun
-Rhino
-Searchlights
=304
[These guys sit back on the home objectives. Point for point, they put out more heavy fire than tactical squads. While it would be super nice to have their Rhinos be Razorbacks, as I discussed before, it just isn't efficient enough to make work. Those Razorbacks turned into the 10 extra bodies for the melta squads, which is a trade I'm happy to make.]
=Total 1,998
So all told, I lose two razorbacks and 2 typhoons from my old list. I gain a second terminator squad, and 10 more MEQ bodies. I think overall the list is a better all-comers list than before and has a lot more versatility in terms of the threats it puts out. I wouldn't be ashamed to roll to a GT with this list at all.
BT Landspeeders are open topped? Wow how do they survive at all?
ReplyDeleteOh, I guess they aren't open topped. My mistake, I forgot the fluff about the "because the drivers are wearing power armor they don't count as open topped."
ReplyDeleteWow. Our final lists ARE extremely similar. haha.
ReplyDeleteWhat if you exchanged a few of those close combat initiates for Neophytes? Making the two squads 8/2 would net you 24 extra points which you could use for an extra Neophyte in you other two squads to give them an ablative wound. Then you would have 6 points (4+2 from left over) to...I don't know, maybe change one of those Neophytes back into an Initiate.
ReplyDeleteBut as it stands, except from getting shot and shooting, you really gain nothing by having a full Initiate Squad. A switch-up of some models and you end up with more, making it harder to kill you units. You don't have AAC for the Neophytes to not benefit from, two changed squad members won't really hurt their effectiveness while it will be very nice for your two squads to have 6 instead of 5 bodies.
Ok I went mad.
ReplyDeleteI worked out that when spending so many points on rhinos.. what is it, 20 points extra per vehicle?
Well if found a justification that goes like this.
Would you rather all your 4 squads of guys start the table in rhinos, or how about, 1 is in a rhino, 1 is in a LRC, 2 are buffed with neos and are there purely to go go ground/objective cap, if they really need to stay alive.
I worked out that with spending so much on all the rhino squads when you really just want a survivable squad with a heavy weapon to hold objectives.. well. I found justification for a LRC. Yea I dont care if ppl say its not competitive, point is, if I can save 150 points on 3 transports, buff those objective cappers with some neophytes and work it out so they can come on reserve/go to ground to do their job, then it can work.
it means instead of 3 rhinos, after your terminator dudes have disabled anything that can hurt a LRC, the LRC turns up. Thats right, would need to position it very well, and worse case scenario come on as reserve and use it as a base. But think about it, even if can only come on as reserve turn 3, it can pick up terminators and get them in an assault after everything has been shot to ****
See? Its not "ok everything starts on table and im gonna shoot you" its I am gonna shoot you with 12 str 9 missile launchers, then my ride is gonna turn up/ come along and im gonna hop in and go boxing with the remaining turns.
This eliminates the idea that the dev terminators are JUST dev termies whose pretty bad ass melee capabilities can get some use, their multi functional.
If one positions it correct it could be like:
x3 turns of 12 missiles. Then LRC turns up, unmolested.
x1 turn of guys charging with 15 attacks str 8 reroll
1x another turn of guys hopping in, then one final turn of 15 attacks re rolls
YES LRC CAN DIE IN ONE HIT!
But 3 turns of 12 str 9 missiles.. Lrc prob wont die so easy unless your opponent starts doing what your doing and coming in LAYERS.
So I did a 2k list taking out all the squiggly bits. No LS Ok the marshal is questionable. he has a storm bolter, but he is really only there to benefit the capping squads. But even they.. with only 1 missile, perhaps hes not even worth it. Well just drop him and in a LS for objective harras later, or fill out neophytes/add more crusaders.
So if your still with me and not lost, you can see that this list is not one that would always want to start on the board, it comes on in layers.
Anyways, enjoy, I am really liking the 2k feel.
Emperor's Champ
-AAC
=140
Marshal, Storm bolter, x4 terminator squad, x2 cml, tank hunters. 305
5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265
5x Terminator Squad
-2x Cyclone Launchers
-Tank Hunters
=265
975
2x5 Initiates + 2 Neos with BP/CCW (one squad has minus one Neo, and Champ goes with them)
-1 squad has rhino Rhino other has.. BLACK TEMPLARS LAND RAIDER CRUSADER
-Smoke
-Meltagun
-pfist
=565
1x5 + Initiates with bolters, missile launcher, 2 neophytes
110
1x5 + Initiates with bolters, missile launcher, 2 neophytes
110
2x1 autolas predators 250
2000
Sorry Nike, to introduce myself I am Alex. Its a late night and been reading your blog and Laeroth and having gone on about it for a few days getting some interesting insights coming through.
ReplyDeleteI generally think a bit outside the box, and hope this may contribute to the discussion wisely.
Thanks
Lucion