As I said earlier in the week, I am strongly considering going to Adepticon this year for the Warhammer Fantasy tournament, despite the softscore hell and battle point formats. In fact, if I don't go, it will be because of those things. Anyway, I've been very concerned about the 2,200 point list format. I've been told it plays like 2k and not like 2.5k. So having a finished 2k list in hand, I want to see if I can brain storm a good use for the second 200 points.
As most 40k players will know, lists have to scale. Some 1750 lists can easily add another 250 points to get to 2k and still have the same ideal synergy. Others simply only work at 1,750. So here is my 2k list...
Dark Elves 2,000 Points
Supreme Sorceress
-Lore of Shadows
-Power of Darkness
-Level 4
-Dark Steed
-Pendent of Kahleth
-Focus Familiar
350
Master
-Cold One Chariot
-Battle Standard Bearer
-Armor of Eternal Servatude
-Dragon Bane Gem
-Halberd
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
245
Master
-Cold One Chariot
-Heavy Armor
-Shield
-Sea Dragon Cloak
-Sword of Might
190
14x Repeater Crossbowmen
-Musician
-Standard
-Shields
164
14x Repeater Crossbowmen
-Musician
-Standard
-Shields
164
5x Dark Riders
-Repeater Cross Bows
-Musician
117
5x Dark Riders
-Repeater Cross Bows
-Musician
117
Cold One Chariot
100
Cold One Chariot
100
Cold One Chariot
100
War Hydra
175
War Hydra
175
Total: 1997
This list packs good close combat punch with 5 chariots and 2 Hydra backed up by Shadow buffs/debuffs to make them hit even harder. The only weakness in CC is that nothing in the army can break steadfast ranked infantry. The solution, of-course is to multi-charge. 3 Chariots and a Hydra charging will not care if your units are steadfast, because they will be dead. As far as shooting goes, it has a lot. 76 Crossbow shots per turn isn't going to light the world on fire, but it's not insignificant, either.
So does this scale to 2.2k? You can't add any more Hydra, no more chariots, nor anymore magic. So the actual threats in the list aren't going to get scarier. Imagine if I could spend the 200 points on 2 more chariots or an extra Hydra. Nasty! Oh well...
Maybe there are other threats I can add. Due to percentile restrictions, I cannot add any more hero level characters, and I can't afford a useful Lord level character with 200. Adding more Core units isn't scary so that's out.
So Specials and Rares. The crap specials, Wyches and Executioners, are out. A unit of 14 Blackguard doesn't make much sense to me in this list. Shades... well that is possible. Add them to the 'potential' list. Rares, I can add 2 Reaper Bolt Throwers and call it a day, so that has potential, too.
The Shades would add a lot. Having an annoying Scout unit that can pepper you with Str 3 AP shots that hit on 3's is useful. If I get the first turn there is a good chance they will decimate a unit or warmachine right off the bat. The standard Shade drawbacks apply: they suck against shooty armies. I don't expect to face any armies without shooting at a major tournament besides Warriors of Chaos. I've had games where my opponent didn't have enough shooting to kill the Shades fast and the Shades were absolutely devastating. But I've also had games where the shades got blown off the board turn 1 because my opponent fired two units worth of small arms fire at them.
The Reapers have less upside than the Shades. Two Reapers is 12 long range Str 4 armor piercing shots a turn that absolutely slay anything other than heavy cavalry. Or two single bolt shots that can do serious damage to big beasties like Stegadons, Doomwheels, etc. Unlike Shades, Reapers don't have the ability to single-handedly dominate the game. But Reapers will never be useless. Against Dwarves, High Elves, Dark Elves, and sometime Empire or Skaven, the Shades have a good chance of doing nothing. So in defense of the Reapers, they won't ever dominate the game, but they won't ever do nothing, either.
Despite that, since a tournament based on battle points is win big or go home, the potential of Shades to be game-breaking is attractive. Though look at the list of armies Shades are bad against. Sub out Dwarves for Lizards and you have the list of best armies in the game. So assuming I start winning, I'll be bound to face a top tier army, and then the Shades will suck. Oh but imagine the fun if I play against 3 WoC armies and a Beastman force!
So what do you think, Shades or Reapers?
Shades are too all or nothing, go with the reapers :)
ReplyDeleteI'm going to say Reapers as well - plugging wounds off Stegadons and the like from a safe distance never hurts. I do like Shades, I like them quite a lot, but you have enough Dark Riders in the list to do their job (with the option of Vanguarding them up or leaving them on the edge of the line to extend fields of fire or whatever else you want to do with them).
ReplyDeleteI feel that Shades will offer more, to be honest. Reapers have to roll too many dice and too many things have to actually go right for them to actually have a big effect. For instance, if you shoot a hydra, that's 66% to hit, 66% to actually wound, then it gets a 50% regen roll, then if you want 3 wounds on it, it's another 33% to actually happen. In total, that's a 7% chance to cause 3 wounds to a hydra. 21% to cause *some* damage to it.
ReplyDeleteSo, 42% to cause *some* damage to a hydra in a given turn, since you have two reapers. Just seems like a fail to me to only take 2. You need them in greater numbers to have a big effect.
Against T4 troops, a reaper hits with 4 shots, wounds two of them, on average. So, with 200 points of shooting, you're killing four T4 troops per turn, assuming they don't get any sort of save, and assuming this is at 24" range. Woo...
Shades are at least consistent... I'd prefer having flexible guys that can kill warmachines, harry troops, and still threaten big guys. 24 repeater shots at close range can (like you say) be pretty good. 12 skirmishers can also be hard to shoot up because of the modifier for them being skirmishers- and it's more ranged that won't be targeting the 'meat' of your list.
/shrug
I can't follow your thoughts on shades since I have completely different experiences. Though there have been games where they would not bring home their point value they have almost always caused enough distraction to make me happy. Sure, they cost a lot and it's the important special slot (which is not important for you now). On the other hand, I like to use that as a bait as well. Having an expensive, easy to kill unit out there will draw attention and if that makes your opponent break his formation that might be worth it... depends on the situation, as always.
ReplyDeleteIf you want consistency, especially together with you XBows, then go for the reapers. They work well together. If you want a completely seperate, independent tool for making pressure then go for the shades.
Personally, looking at your army I would go for the shades. Your army doesn't really need to "soften up" foes. Multi-charging put-big-thingy-here with chariots and hydras will kill it. Period. So Reapers might become useless unless you get some nice shots on MSUs or other squishy stuff that comes out of cover. Shades on the other hand might take out/make useless some unnerving unit by themselves.
Interesting thoughts. I will definitely have to get some games in with the Shades to see how they play.
ReplyDeleteI hadn't considered the fact that even though they aren't as scary as the hydras or chariots, they are a must kill unit, and that messes up my opponent's target priority.
That's exactly one fact about dangerous (and usually also expensive) units many people tend to ignore.
ReplyDeleteEager to read about the test games!
I have to go with shades. My main army is Wood Elves and when one looks at the Waywatcher stats they aren't worth 24pts. YET I take them every game. Like shades they are a very random unit; sometimes I have them take out a whole unit of KoC in 1 turn, sometimes they do nothing and get killed. BUT its not what they do its their potential. Elite Scouts (i.e. shades) are meant to disrupt, the enemy battle plan.
ReplyDeleteFor example in a battle against empire I multi-charged his big "horde" unit with his BSB and General. He broke and I ran him down. I also had a unit of 7 WW way behind his line, which by now consisted of cav and another horde, which cause him to turn and wipe out the WW. This allowed the rest of my army to escape and evade him for the rest of the match.
In your case I would take shades to draw out your enemies Fast Cav and Flankers so they don't flank your massive charge and kill you with CR.
Just my two cents
You have to take an awefull lot of stupidity checks.
ReplyDelete7 right?
Or is it possible to combine the chariots?
You can't combine them, but between general and BSB bubbles you aren't likely to fail them, either.
DeleteThanks., looks like a solid list.
ReplyDeleteHow would you employ against a death mage, he can snipe the bsb and such.,
Im often face a lot of chaos warriors, can this list still work against them?