Thursday, December 2, 2010

Today in Awful Warseer Tactics Part 10: Edition

I figured for the very special 10th Edition of this article I would delve into  We all know that forums encourage group think and it's the loudest voice that's heard, not the right one.  Well if general forums encourage group think, army specific forums are the group think of group think. is a Dark Elves specific Warhammer Fantasy forum, and as bad as the tactics area of forums are, the role playing and fluff areas are worse.  In those areas you will find grown men (and grown women who weigh more than grown men) taking Elves far, far too seriously.  

But enough of that nonsense.  We aren't here to make fun of people who masturbate to thoughts of being raped by a Dark Elf Dreadlord.  OK, we ARE here to do that, but right now what we are here for is to make fun of people who post really bad tactics.  In this thread, some guy posts a lists of particular units that he believes flourish in 2,500 point Dark Elf lists.  And it's not that his choices are even that bad, though they are, it's that he is making the cardinal mistake of looking at units in isolation rather than as parts of a cohesive list.  If you just randomly picked units from this list and tossed them into your army list, you would get trashed.  So what's the point of making a list of 'good' units that isn't applicable to actual gameplay?  There isn't any.  To make matters worse, after the original simpleton posts his retarded list, the even more simple people post their even more retarded opinions.  As always, my comments will follow each post in orange.

jbtheslipperking:  I've tried out different units and my conclusion so far is:

Big spear block unit with lv4+dagger is a no brainer. Extremely effective magic phase. 

Duh.  Everyone already knew that.

6-7 shades + assassin with manbane/rending star combo. Might seem a bit expensive, but the assassin makes the unit very effective in many situations. Those rending stars are really scary on stand and shoot against otherwise hard hitting dudes. Doomwheels, Scrap launchers, lone ogres, small cav units, warmashines in general ofc etc. The unit never fails me. 

No, they suck.  The unit never fails you?  I guess you don't play against any other armies with shooting then.  One unit of Lotheran Sea Guard should blow this overpriced unit right off the table turn one.  Thanks for playing.

14 WE with flaming banner . Vulnerable, but if protected it is amazing against trolls, hellpits, small ogre units, difficult high toughness stuff in general. And combined with mindrazor it goes through anything. 

Waste of points, waste of points from the all important Special slots.  Oh and if you buff with mindrazor it's really good.  No shit?  Name a unit in the DE book that ISN'T good when buffed by Mindrazor.

Cold one unit with DL on cold one. 6 COK + DL is a rock hard unit. Tried them with the +1 move banner and find it very useful. It is especially useful because of the synergy with the COB giving them extra attack. 16 str 6 attacks rerollable. Charge into blood knights, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 5 saves. Still 5 net wounds. The unit is crippled unless he's got like 12, but that many points is very rare. This hammer is anyways really good. 

WRONG.  Dreadlord?  Not a BSB?  You like failing Stupidity tests and looking like an idiot?  Good deal then.

Hydra is amazing, but be aware. It can get into trouble. T5 and 5 wound is vulnerable and there are flaming banners and flaming attacks out there. And breath weapon only once per game, remember. Still a no brainer and remember that you hit a lot more models with flame template now, so it's not always good to use it in close combat.

Now that's something ground breaking.  Except, you know, Hydra suck at 2,500 points.  They are good at 2,000 and good again at 3,000.  But at 2,500 they blow. And since this is a 2,500 point article, you should keep that in mind.

10-20 xb unit is a must. Not always as effective as one thinks, but you need to fill up that core quota and sometimes they are extremely useful. 20 with mus and shield is my choice. They can hold up a flank in many cases. 

"Not as effective as one thinks."  What?  It's the best core unit in the game.  Go away.

BG , big units is IMO too expensive because of the new warmachine rules. But I've had great success with a small/medium one. The conga line tactics works nice. Enemy hitting/killing only the champ on the charge. And then in your turn, reform and hit with everyone. They got charged by 8 ogres with 2 heroes in it. Killed champ, I reform, extra attack from COB and then mindrazor from my lv4 with dagger. 27 str 9 attacks with reroll hitting on 3+ wounding on 2+. My opponent went pale, I can assure you.
Pure fail.  Blackguard are the best infantry unit in the game.  They don't need all your stupid buffs either.  A unit of 20 with the AP banner can kill that stupid Ogre unit and heroes without a COB or Mindrazor buff.   This is such a good example of looking at a unit out of context of the whole army list.  My 3 BG 2,500 list is pretty ridiculous, and it doesn't use the COB or Mindrazor.  Nor does it use most of the other stupid shit you recommend on this list, yet I still win games.  STRANGE.

Harpies of course, 2x5 or 2x6, cheap and versatile. 

What universe are you in?  These are good in 2,500?

12 corsairs with sss . Sometimes it shines, but sometimes not.

So a unit that is sometimes good, sometimes bad makes your list of best units in what is considered the best army book?  Go play in traffic.

COC - not so happy with it. Too slow and too unstable for my taste. To roll 5-6 on impact is good, but roll 1-2 and its bad. Comes in handy sometimes, but it's on and off. 

More utter stupidity.  Maybe you've heard of multi-charging.  Maybe you've heard of taking more than one of something.  Try multi-charging a unit with three of these simultaneously and tell me they suck.

DR - always used them in 7 ed. But now, not so happy with them. Not being able to do anything useful in the flank of a unit and with the game being so combat oriented instead of manoeuvre/move oriented, they are not performing as reliably as before. 

So Harpies are good, but the far, far superior Dark Riders are not?  I'm can't even comprehend your thinking.  A fast cavalry unit with quick to fire repeater crossbows is a bad thing now?  You're mad because they aren't good at close combat?  That isn't the point of the unit.  That's like being upset because Blackguard aren't good at casting magic.

RBT is slightly less effective now and a bit more vulnerable. Still, that single bolt in the flank of a knight unit going all the way through is so nice that it can be worth it.
A bit more vulnerable?  How's that?  They are T7.  You fire your Reaper Bolt Throwers in single shot mode?  Are you insane?


 Wow that was some dumbass shit.  Let's see what the peanut gallery responds with...

olderplayer:  I've played a lot in 8th ed and almost all at 2500 to 2750 points in empires campaigns and local tourneys and indy GT's. 

uh oh, anytime someone prefaces their comments with their tournament resume you know you're going to get intelligent comments...

A hydra is essential now to survive, two is better. Spearman unit with lvl 4 and sac dagger is very good but a warmachine magnet. Spearmen are generally inferior to RXB warriors absent the sac dagger. I use the standard of disciplne to boost LD for panic checks. I have had mixed success with BG unit. They need to be protected too much (cauldron ward save, lore of metal augment to AS, and/or screened) due to magic and war machine shooting being more effective against this unit. My experience with Dark Riders has been more positive than expected. Above 2000 points, a cauldron is almost a necessity.  RBTs are still good but not nearly as valuable as before relativer to hydras and seem to be killed much more oftren and much more easily in 8th edition by shooting 

Where to start?

1.  Hydras are not essential at 2,500.  At 2,000 you can take two and your opponent only has 2,000 points of power to kill them.  That's hard.  At 2,500 you can take... two.  And your opponent can take 2,500 points of power to kill them.  That's not as hard.  Guess what happens then?  That's right, Hydra are not essential at 2,500.

2.  Spearmen with the LD banner?  Maybe you've heard of this crazy thing called a battle standard bearer.  They allow you to reroll panic tests, it's great.

3.  A single BG unit will indeed be a fire magnet and will die.  But who runs single units of BG?  No one good.  
4.  Dark Riders are good.  How many times do I have to say that fast cavalry who can shoot really well and scout deploy are good?

5.  A Cauldron is never a necessity at any points level unless you are really bad and play battleforce lists.  Now, if you run a triple Cauldron list you have something, but this is not what you are advocating.

6.  Run 5 reaper bolt throwers and tell me that they die easily.  Oh so fast cavalry deployed nearby.  Use 2 or 3 bolt throwers and blow them off the board before they can do anything.  Hydras at 2,500 aren't amazing.  But 5 Reapers are.  Not many of the "elite" units you face in 2,500 can withstand the combined fire of 5 bolt throwers.  They just can't.

Babnik: Hi Druchii fellows,

So far, I have fielded our legions in 2 tournaments. Means 10 games + 6 home games.

With experience like that, I'm sure you will have some great insight...

Large unit of COK . 10 to 14.  Very resistant, can't take a lot of damages thanks to the +2 save, ITP and COB ward save (usually for the first 2 rounds). I call it my swiss bank account. Just because my COK represent 20% up to 33% of my whole army points. As 50% casualties do not give away VP anymore, there are always couple of COK left at the end of round 5.
Furthermore with ASF banner and sometimes Hydra bsb, they simply crush any opponent. Recently, I drove over 10 Chaos knights, 30 bloodletters. The only unit who managed to resist were these god damned swordmasters!

My god you're dumb.    Your opponents are so bad.  You're putting 33% of your points into a single unit that isn't an auto-win against everything in the game?  Wow that's a bad idea.  I guess you really never play against armies with good magic or shooting.  2+ armor save with no ward isn't really all that "resistant."

24 Xbm . Compulsory for core units slots. More versatile than spearmen and corsairs.  

24?  I guess where you play no one utilizes maneuver in their game plans.  Please explain how one unit of 24 is better than 2 units of 12.  I'd love to hear that so I can laugh in your face.

28 witch elve s. Just great. High I and multiple attacks make them irresistible against any blocks of infantry. Even against swordmasters (I5 so no hitting reroll). Just make sure they are in combat in round 2-3. 

I just don't know how we can look at the same army book and draw such different conclusions.  A huge block of Witch Elves would just get laughed at where I play.  They would be shot up before they ever saw combat.  They would get hit by multiple chariots and die to impact hits before their high initiative mattered.  Please explain how they are any better than Blackguard.  

24 execs . I just love these guys, I was used to play in 7th ed so they are obviously in my 8th games! However, they can't fight any units. Cavalry OK, single attacks infantry ok. Multiple attacks infantry NOT OK! 

Now I think you're trolling.  One of the worst units in the game you love?  You say you love them and they are "obviously" in your 8th edition lists, then you go on to list that they are only good against shitty infantry and heavy cavalry.  When was the last time you saw anyone running shit infantry and heavy cavalry lists?  Executioners are insanely bad.  Just please save me from this...

6 Dark riders . If you don't manage to get in combat with the warmachines crew, they are just useless. You give VP away to easily. 

What?  You mean you don't give them RBX and have them dance around the flanks shooting and never able to be charged?  Wow you're dumb.

I still need to try properly harpies and shades. But I think they should do well against heavy artillery. However, they are useless against VC, Chaos, daemons, etc...

Shades are useless against Daemons and VC?  Other than, you know, killing  Fateweaver first turn.  Or killing Corpse Carts and Black Coaches.  Besides that maybe they are useless against those armies.  Here is my conclusions: you don't have a fucking clue of what you're talking about, along with the rest of your stupid forum buddies.     



  1. Hey, units of six or seven Shades are good, and the Assasin's not bad, but one shouldn't be serving as an overpriced delivery system for the other.

    Executioners are terribad though. I inherited a big unit of them from my army's previous owner and I've been trying (and failing) to make them work for quite a while now.

  2. Yeah I may have overreacted a bit saying that Shades were bad, but I think the guy made them seem like an uber unit which they definitely are not. I played Shades heavily when 8th came out and they ended being amazing against non-shooty armies and horrible against shooty armies. They just aren't an all-comers choice. I think they compete with Dark Riders with what they do, and I'd probably rather have the Dark Riders in Core than Shades in Specials.

  3. So here's a question: do you have any battle reports with pictures? What you say *seems* to make sense to me, but I would really like to see it all in practice.

    I play DE and use lots of the same units you do- I'd like to see how good 5 RBTs are though (before I buy 3 more), and what 3 squads of Black Guard can do, in actuality rather than just hearing that they're good.

    Please don't take this as trolling, or me trying to call you out or anything, I'm just genuinely interested in seeing results. I tend to learn best through Battle Reports (when I'm not actually playing).

    If you don't have any battle reports out yet, could I request for you to make a few? :)

  4. I think I have a 3k report on here way back in September.

    I will definitely do more of them. I always feel like my reports are shitty compared to the more professionally done ones I see other people put out. I guess practice makes perfect.

  5. Oh and I wouldn't advocate a 5 bolt thrower list actually. My current 2.5k list only uses 4 and it's plenty fine.

  6. "Go away" and "plenty fine"- man, maybe it is due to lack of sleep or just my strange way of thinking, but that is pure internet gold right there. Thanks!

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