Friday, September 9, 2011

40k: Outside the Box Black Templars 2k

Hey all. I've been thinking about Black Templars at 2k. The standard gunline list is OK, but has problems. It's basically an average Space Marine shooty list: Rhinos with melta, Typhoons, Predators etc. Instead of Riflemen Dreads it brings shooty terminators. Yadda yadda. So I want to play Templars at 2k competitively, but I don't see that list as being special enough to have game against big dogs. So I figured, why not just start from scratch and see what I can come up with? The following list probably isn't that great, but it's definitely different and maybe with some community input it may have legs. So calling all Templar players, and anyone else who might want to input, lemme know. 

Hybrid Templars - 2,000pts 

Champ Abhor -110 

4x5 Initiates 
-Rhino =600 

2x5 Initiates 
-Missile Launcher 
-Rhino =292 

Attack Bike 

Attack Bike 

Attack Bike 

3x5 Terminators 
-2x Cyclone Missile Launchers 
-Tank Hunters 


So it has some interesting things that you need to do to win NOVA style games.  6 mobile troops units, 4 of them are double meltas, 2 backfield objective sitters with longer range firepower.  The Attack Bikes add more mobile melta.  I might prefer to have Speeders here, but the points don't work.  The 3 units of terminators are like Long Fangs, but harder to kill and shoot harder.  They should, since they cost a lot more.  Plus, they munch anything that isn't a dedicated CC unit.



  1. I fail to see how this is much different from other Black Templar Gunlines. Sure you have Multi-Melta Attack Bikes instead of Typhoons, but that's really it.

    Some actual changes might be things like shorter ranged weapons across your army, such as Assault Cannon Terminators instead of your current ones (which, coincidentally, would give you the points to turn the Attack Bikes into MM/HF Land Speeders); trying full Biker Squads instead of just Attack Bikes; or even trying to make a good mix of Assaulting and Shooting. As it is, you might as well label it 'Breaking the Land Speeder Mold' as anything else.

  2. Most 2k lists dont have 3 terminator units, most have speeders, and most have predators and most have 4 troops instead of 6.

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  4. Hey, I'm a BT player and I played at NOVA (3-1, couldn't come back because I live local and the hurricane would have made the drive on Sunday dangerous). I think the BT gunline army is actually good, really good. But I often see build weaknesses, especially in the troops slot. I think that there are only two smart ways to play BT troops: take 3 squads, a few of them in rhinos. Give them las/plas and reserve them in objective missions. Or, and I like this more, swap one of the termie squads for a marshal in term armor with a command squad (because the command unit can be 4 strong you keep the firepower and only lose 65 points instead of the full 105). Then take 4-6 las/plas crusader squads on foot with LD 10. Reserve 1-2 in objective missions if necessary. The end rsult is a more points efficient troops selection with more firepower.

  5. Templar ABikes have to be bought in a minimum of two, which is a major pain.

    I think we really need the Typhoons to offset our over-priced Rhinos. It is the only way to claw some points back.

    Here is my 1500 pt list:
    Champion - 140

    3x Crusader squad. 5 - 96 ~ 288
    MM, Flamer
    Rhino - 58 ~ 174
    Smoke, XA

    Crusader squad. 5 - 101
    LC, Flamer

    2x Predator, Autolas - 133 ~ 266
    Smoke, XA

    Tornado speeder - 75
    MM, HF

    Typhoon speeder - 70

    Typhoon speeder pair - 140

    2x Dreadnought - 123 ~ 246
    HF, Smoke, XA

    1500 pts

    4 MM
    4 Flamer
    3 HF
    2 Assault cannons
    2 Auto cannons
    5 LC
    3 CML
    3 HB

    Dreads are not tough. But when you have them with three Rhinos, and have two Preds and three Typhoons in the backfield, and then a Tornado slinking around, it provides enough saturation to keep them alive.

    The MM Bunkers help kill AV, whilst the Dreads mop up. This stops the Initiates from having to get out, and they can always do drive by BBQs anyway.

    The Preds provide cover saves for the Typhoons, who 'should' be deployed out of range of enemy AT shooting, ideally.

    The Tornado is for move-blocking LR and Battlewagons, etc.

  6. To expand the list to 2K, you can add:

    5 Dakkanators - 275
    tank hunters, 2 CML, 2 chain fists.

    1 Typhoon - 70

    1 AutoLas Pred - 133

    +2 Neophytes, lol - 20

    The CF are for wound allocation. And s9+2d6 is pretty mean against walkers and AV14. One CF on a normal guy and one CF on a CML.

    The Typhoon joins the single Typhoon.

    The Dreads protect the Dakkanators from Blood Letters, Sang Guard, etc. who will pwn them by having >I power weapons.
    The Dakkanators provide un-shake'able guns.

    The AutoLas adds more ap2 shooting, which the list is not heavy with.

    You could always take a Vindi with PotMS, at 155, if you are skilled with them.

    Basically, the list doesn't worry about the enemies DZone Objectives, and come T5, after having kept the precious Speeders alive, uses them to contest the enemy Objectives.

  7. Aye, as Marshal Wilhelm noted, the Attack Bikes need to be taken in two's. They'd be a viable option if that weren't the case, but it isn't. lol!

    Assuming the list was legal, however, I think it does have some issues. It certainly is more mobile than my gunline list is (which ended up being very important with all the terrain), but it lacks the power to knock your opponent off of their objective. Even with my 28 48" AP2/3 weapons, I wasn't able to effectively do this reliably due to the prevalence of cover. You are packing quite a bit less than that, so it might be a big problem for you.

    However, you do have more Rhino hulls on the board in which you can contest. In hindsight, 4+ rhinos were incredibly difficult to kill with as much cover there was, so assuming the terrain remains the same, you shouldn't have a problem on that front. Still, I'm concerned with your ability to handle large squads on those distant objectives.

    Your horde-killing power is also pretty centralized to your Terminators. Normally that isn't a problem, but if your Terminators get pinged and Righteous Zeal off the board like what happened to me a couple times, that might be a problem. Its also a problem if they get charged early on.

    So to recap:

    1) Definitely has the better mobility when compared to my gunline list.

    2) More troops, which ended up being important in some of my games (most couldn't kill them though).

    3) Lacks enough firepower to knock opponent's off objectives, so will be reliant on contesting/tank shocks. Also requires you to close the distance with your opponent before a lot of your shooting gets in range. Which could be good or extremely bad, depending on the match-up. :P

    4) Weakness in the horde-infantry department. But you really can't get around that running a BT gunline, I tried. lol

  8. I'd agree, you have simply refocused the gunline into your Terminators. Even with my deep strike list I never could manage to get over two squads of THDC Terminators fitted in there comfortably. What I would do as a minimum is scrap the two Rhinos with your ML/Pg squads. They are backfield sitters anyway and can walk to the objectives if they cannot start set up on them. This leaves you 108 points.

    Oh, that will kill your Rhino body count, but you can turn 15 of those points into enough to convert the MM attack bikes to LS-Typhoons which gives the opponent +1 vehicle to target. For a minor, move 12 points onto the four Rhinos to give them smoke during the first lunge or to play the Rhino dance for two turns. (Rhinos blocking LOS smoke, other Rhinos hide behind smokers, then reverse it next turn.)

    This leaves you 81 points to play with. Hmmm, pull one of the Terminators out of a squad (saving 40), replace with a PA Castellan with SS & Frags while converting another Terminator from PF to PW for free. Now, with the other 40 you could upgrade to AACNMTO and buy something else for the Castellan or stay with AtW and have multiple options for gear upgrades (SS on Terminator Sgt) or Neophytes attached to some of the Crusader squads.

    Side note: I've never regretted buying up odd Neophytes because they absorb shots from plinking attacks to help my squad stick around an extra turn instead of being whittled away.

    Thank you much though, you are tempting me to investigate a slightly different build for my deep strike list, although I'm not sure. My last two games (more by chance than design) saw my opponents focusing on my LS-Typhoons more, costing me a lot of firepower, but... that meant my Terminators were available to march more freely across the board and win the games barring my opponents' way to objectives.

    BTW, IMO, fire support should focus more on ML than anything else. Two reasons, first the duality, secondly, the ability to drop mass casualty templates on MEQ in cover. 4xKrak vs MEQ give 1.11 casualties in 4+ cover. If they are packed in and you can get 8 MEQ hits in four small blasts then you get 1.33 casualties vs 3+ armor. Or as my Space Wolf opponent found out, when I drop 4 templates with minimal to no scatter and score 20 hits on a tight group just from the Frags, I don't care about their cover anymore.