Hey all. After playing my 6th Edition Templar list a bit to get a handle on 6th, I realized I didn't want to be in Templars after the FAQ. Simply put, having to bring an Emperor's Champ and another obligatory HQ is pretty points prohibitive. It basically eliminates me bringing allies to make up for the shortcomings of the Templars. What I basically found was that while Templars are shooty enough to compete in 6th, the added price of the 2nd obligatory HQ is one burden too many when it comes to list building. Additionally, the lack of mobility is a problem, only the Terminators and Typhoons can really move and shoot effectively and I just felt outclassed by highly mobile armies. Lastly, despite a lot of firepower, I ran into the problem of dealing with deathstars effectively without a ton of AP1 or 2 to put shots into them.
At that point I decided to give vanilla Space Marines a chance. Their firepower is only slightly less than the Templars can bring, but they are much more flexible in that there is are more good units at each FOC slot to bring greater variety, plus they can add in allies a lot more flexibly. One of the things I wanted most was a 10x strong Terminator Assault Squad. Compared to other deathstars in various lists, they come in the cheapest, and they are a decent trump card against them. And if your opponent isn't bringing a deathstar, they are a threat to assault both infantry and vehicles. Just an all around great unit. The only other things I figured to be mandatory was bringing two Riflemen, and Predators in heavy support.
After a few games with my initial rough list, I came to the following conclusions:
1. Codex Space Marines are generally not going to curb stomp your opponent. You're neither cheaper, nor stronger, nor tougher than your opponent. But the strength is versatility; your tactics have to change against each opponent. Some games you have to play aggressive and others highly defensive. Other armies are a bit more linear from a tactical perspective. They have their game plan, and they try to execute it. If they succeed they win, if the opponent can counter it, they lose. When making a C:SM list you have to acknowledge the fact that you aren't going to just steamroll someone off the board, and that every game against a good opponent is going to be relatively close. This means you build into your list the tools to attack or defend.
2. Predators are good, especially with lascannon sponsons. Very few other heavy support units can interact profitably with them. They have enough firepower to just outshoot opposing heavy support choices, though AV14 is a problem. That said, they struggle against infantry. There are a lot more foot or hybrid lists out there it seems, plus a lot more deathstars. For the same reason Predators got good (AV13, resistance to being Shaken/Stunned) Vindicators did too. The "one gun" tank problem is largely gone now, and Vindis are pretty great. They just smoke infantry, even deathstars, and being Str 10 AP2 Ordinance means they can drop anything short of a Land Raider with ease. And with the new blast rules, they will smash a parking lot to smithereens. If you tally up the things a Predator is better against than a Vindicator, the Vindi seems to come out on top in 6th Edition, at this point.
3. I prefer the age old Gate/Null Zone Libby powers over taking Divination. While some of the Divination powers are potentially stronger, I don't want to get worthless stuff, and honestly the Primaris power for Divination doesn't impress me a great deal. I would rather take a 7/10 guaranteed than the gamble of a 10/10 or 4/10.
4. I'm not opposed to allies, but I haven't found an ally component that goes with this list in a way that doesn't seem flawed to me.
So here is where I'm at today...
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| I painted this, which explains its startling mediocrity |
Librarian
-Force Maul
-Null Zone
-Gate
-Terminator Armor and Storm Shield
=140
[Fairly typical. I was going to just go Power Armor and keep him el cheapo, but there are situations where you can't avoid him being in challenges, and that's a problem, so I bought him some protection.]
Elites
10x Terminator Assault Squad
=400
Rifleman
=125
Rifleman
=125
[I explained the Termies above, and I think most people know the merits of Rifledreads, especially as this is really my only protection from flyerwings.]
Troops
10x Tactical Squad
-Rhino
-Melta
-Multimelta
-Combimelta
=220
10x Tactical Squad
-Rhino
-Melta
-Multimelta
-Combimelta
=220
10x Tactical Squad [break into combat squads]
-Melta
-Combimelta
-Plasma Cannon
-Las/plas Razorback
=265
10x Tactical Squad [break into combat squads]
-Melta
-Combimelta
-Plasma Cannon
-Las/plas Razorback
=265
[After playing with four of the melta Rhinos, I felt it just wasn't necessary to have that much. melta, and that the benefits of the Plasma Cannon was pretty great now. Also, I had a Typhoon in the early incarnations of this list, and I found it to be fairly meh as a one of. The Las/Plas Razorback is a serious threat to most opponents, but with all the other threats in the list it ranks pretty low on target priority. Part of the philosophy I outlined above for Marines to be versatile means spreading out your threats so you don't have a single point of failure, and I think these help a lot in that department.]
Heavy Support
Vindicator
-Dozer Blade
=120
Vindicator
-Dozer Blade
=120
[I explained these earlier, but they do work.]
Total: 2,000
What do you guys think?
Think about a Land Raider, I know it means less terminators, but Land Raiders have got a great boost compared to other vehicles.
ReplyDeleteI like it, even though I am personally not sold on Vindicators yet. I think they are too short-ranged when combined with the TH/SS Squad o'Doom. I would personally rather see some more long-ranged firepower to force your opponent to choose between getting picked apart or smashed by TH/SS Termies. Let us know how it goes!
ReplyDeleteLooks pretty good. I'm curious how your Rifleman Dreads have held up in games so far. With only 3 HP, I've put the points elsewhere thus far. Also, rather than the Whirlwind, try the Thunderfire in an Aegis corral, then use the Techmarine to reinforce it for a 3+ save. With artillery becoming T7 W2 and 3+, they got a lot sturdier. :)
ReplyDeleteThey have been good, thanks to being able to move and shoot you can deploy them safely behind cover on turn 1 so they always get to bring the pain before the opponent can deal with them.
DeleteAre the riflemen really sufficient to sort out flyers? I worked out the probabilities here:
Deletehttp://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~mosb/shared/prob_wrecking.pdf
If I'm not wrong, two riflemen firing at a zooming stormraven have only a 0.1 probability of downing it, and that's assuming it doesn't evade. Hardly seems that reliable. Honestly, I think that until we see the next faq, which will hopefully give us flakk missiles, flyers are a real problem.
Well, I'll have to throw them in my next list then. :)
DeleteWell, GW has said the next FAQ will be out by the end of summer, so probably within 45 days. I'll be taking a quad gun for aircraft. The Dakka Dreads are my preferred method for dealing with light-medium armor. :)
Not that it matters at 2k (double FOC) but I plan to use allies to have 4 Heavy's (The 3x Predators & 1 Vindicator I own).
ReplyDeleteThe main reason for not taking Divination - Ultramarines do not have access to it! Wolves and Vamps do though.
As for Allies I can not see much of a reason not to take Space Wolves. For the same cost as your 20 Marines in Plasmabacks you can have Rune Priest, 2x5 GHunters with Meltagun in Plasmabacks, 5 Long Fangs with 4xMissiles. For a few points more you can squash in a sixth Fang.
That doesn't seem like a strict upgrade at all to me. I already consider 40 scoring bodies to be on the low side for MEQ. The biggest selling point is the Rune Priest, but while his anti-psyker powers are good I bet I would win more games overall by having more scoring units. The Long Fangs are intriguing, and if they some day get Flakk Missiles they will be even more intriguing.
DeleteI do think its a good and worthwhile idea but I wouldn't say there is "no reason" not to take SW allies.
I did not say there was 'no reason' either; there just seems very little value in not taking the best units from two Marine Codices, be that Wolves, Vamps or Ultramarines.
DeleteI find 40 scoring MEQ to be on the high side so I guess we have a different slant on the game. Assuming they do get Flakk Missiles in the FAQ 2.0 you could replace 1 Tactical Squad and a Dread with:
100 – Rune Priest
155 – Grey Hunters x5 with Meltagun and Plasmaback
115 – Long Fangs x5 with 4x Missiles
Now I feel obligated to make a Sad Face.gif for you! D:
ReplyDeleteI'll be back when BT don't have to pay a second HQ tax. Because they are otherwise so powerful, that tax is completely necessary. And stuff.
DeleteBut I bet the CRUSADER, HATRED, and ZEALOT USR's have you excited for their next book, eh? Seems like a nice preview of how they may function.
DeleteYeah when I saw those in the book I thought "I wonder who they are hinting at with that." And then I smiled.
DeleteYeah. After reading Helsreach, I want to run some BT Allies. They'll be good buds for my Fists, and after a new book, they should be super awesome! :D
DeleteIf we get all that, then fine. As it is, while I can run a Templar list, I have to have allies, IG is best. It isn't that it runs short of points, there were just too many flat out stupid "oopsies" and changes in the FAQ to make the Templars really workable currently. Okay, yes, I could do some kind of specialty list that I bet I'd win most of my games with, but otherwise...against the wrong list, I'd be toast.
ReplyDeleteBest bet I've seen for BT is the triple PotMS Vindicators with an IG Blob and full 10/10 Crusader squad. Yes, blobs can be dealt with, but with two of them filling the board coming at you plus three pie plates of doom it gives a decent chance to seize and hold the initiative so your opponent must react to you. OTOH, as Nike noted, as soon as you find someone who can stall the charge and/or deal with the Vindis, you are hurting if not dead.
Vindis blow up any "rocks" and the two mobs swarm down the rest of it.
Using Vindicators makes much more sense now. Oh hi, Nobikerstar, Wolfstar etc. S10 pie plate can put the hurt in many death stars out there. Could you give it another weapon maybe to make the main cannon a bit more durable vs Weapon Destroyed Results?
ReplyDelete2 of them would make nice saturation but not sure how useful they could be versus certain armies. You think you'll be up against many flyerwings? Maybe a Predator for the same points instead would be more useful?
10 TH/SS with Gate sounds fun. Vehicles can easily outrun Terminators now of course but that should keep them busy, the psycological effect of TH/SS is huge as I have found from my games.
Not sure on the heavies in the tac squads. I guess if you end up running 2 vindis then the plasmacannons are a bit moot but then again you might run against many 2+ models or hordes.
I agree. If the Plasma Cannons are overkill with the Vindis I can switch them out for missiles or lascannon. I guess it comes down to what kind of lists people show up to tourney's with.
DeleteThe only other drawback I can think of is that they're the only heavy weapon that can't snapfire. Might not be important very often, but every now and then, it'll save your bacon to make those shots. :)
DeleteSince I have the same model I was going to ask about your Force Maul. Is it just because that is what is on the model and you do not want to chop it up or do you actually think Str 6 is worthwhile since he is running around with everyone else having Str 8, AP2.
ReplyDeleteI was also thinking of giving the Sgt Claws; Look out Sir works as a psudo Storm shield for him (if the 4+ fails he still has his 2+/5++) and he can potentially cut down a few attackers before they strike blows.
I was using it because it was on the model, but it's a happy coincidence that its the best option available for him.
Delete